Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Duothematic channel. Primary topic is virtual worlds/OpenSim, secondary topic is the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Follow me from Mastodon or anywhere else in the Fediverse.

Ort:: The Hypergrid

Geschlecht:: Männlich

Homepage:: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/profile/jupiter_rowland

Tue, 01 Aug 2023 10:04:47 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 10:04:39 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Fediverse

show all 12 comments

Tue, 01 Aug 2023 16:16:31 +0200

Yohan Yukiya Sese ♾️ 사요한 🦣

youronlyone@c.im

Two questions about eye contact; CW: long (over 1,800 characters), mentions eye contact, mentions alcohol, mentions being triggered

Artikel ansehen

Tue, 01 Aug 2023 21:32:43 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 21:32:34 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🦣 Well, I can't go by what only one community finds acceptable. I've got followers from all over the place, and I don't see when someone boosts my posts. They may end up in the federated or even local timelines of all kinds of instances. Technically speaking, I have to follow the rules of all these instances.

And then there's what individuals feel. There might be autistic people in the Fediverse who already feel uneasy when a "person" measures fewer than two dozen pixels in a very busy, very detailed image with all kinds of big and small things in it, but the face of that "person" is halfway discernable, so it means that "person" must be looking in their general direction.

Maybe there are even those who feel uneasy about a "person" that's only 4 pixels in an 800-pixel-wide image, but my description says that "person" is not oriented away from the camera, and the top pixel has a tendency of being flesh-coloured.

Wed, 02 Aug 2023 00:15:50 +0200

Yohan Yukiya Sese ♾️ 사요한 🦣

youronlyone@c.im

@jupiter_rowland Yep. There's no way possible way to please everyone.

Either you just follow your own instance's rule or apply the maximum, so you can cover every possible requests.

For example, for us autistics, it will be very close to impossible to cover everything. Think of a music board. Each dial and switches is an autistic trait and quirk. Each autistic have different “settings” for each of those dials and switches. And we do not have any data how many autistics are, for example, sensitive to eyes. And even if we say there are 100,000, there is no data how many of those are sensitive with eyes from photos.

So, if you really want to have some form of personal CW rule or alt description, you will have to go for the maximum, assume the person looking at it has the highest sensitivity on seeing eyes.

Which of course means you'll probably make it weird for the other communities (and for yourself actually).

> There might be autistic people in the Fediverse who already feel uneasy when a "person" …

There are. ^_^

> … They may end up in the federated or even local timelines of all kinds of instances.

That's right. It's impossible to cater to them all.

For example, in your OP, you had do this: person/a creature/a character/an avatar/a static dummy/etc. and how I describe that person/creature/character/avatar/static dummy, no matter how small and far away, and I mention that the person/creature/character/avatar/static dummy is

It is actually very challenging to read. And as an autistic myself, it is very distracting from what you are trying to say, I actually would've skipped your post if I did not see “autistic” and “eye contact” in your original post.

I am not saying all autistics are finding it challenging to read. There are those who are fine with it. And of course, there are ADHD persons, and AuDHD (Autistic + ADHD).

The thought and effort is more than enough. But, at some point, you'll have to draw a line.

I'll end it with another example since we're already on the topic. You haven't asked yet if you should use “autistic [person]” or “person with autism”. It's a very heated subject.

You know… there is something peculiar with your intent focus and interest on getting this right and satisfying everyone. ;)

Wed, 02 Aug 2023 01:16:59 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Wed, 02 Aug 2023 01:16:50 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🦣

"For example, in your OP, you had do this: person/a creature/a character/an avatar/a static dummy/etc. and how I describe that person/creature/character/avatar/static dummy, no matter how small and far away, and I mention that the person/creature/character/avatar/static dummy is"

That's because I had to cover a lot, including but not limited to:

real-life humans
real-life animals
drawn/animated human characters
drawn/animated furry characters
drawn/animated animal characters
drawn/animated feral animals
video game characters
avatars in virtual worlds (may appear in my pictures)
computer-controlled non-player characters in virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator (may appear in my pictures)
computer-controlled animesh figures in Second Life or virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator (may appear in my pictures)
static, non-moving dummy figures in virtual worlds (may appear in my pictures)
two-dimensional, semi-transparent, "cardboard-style", static, non-moving dummy props based on photographs or screenshots or drawings of humans or furry characters or animals (may appear in my pictures)

"> There might be autistic people in the Fediverse who already feel uneasy when a "person" …

There are. ^_^"

Okay, just for me to understand this: I will now confront you with links to a few pictures which I'd flag "CW: eye contact" whereas other people wouldn't even know where there's someone who'd make eye contact.

Example #1: this image from this blog post (this link leads to actual, fairly close-up eye contact).

If I understand you correctly, both the female avatar at roughly 20% from the left-hand edge and 60% from the top edge, the two static guard dummies on both sides of the entrance to the building, the horse beneath the trees and the rocks, to the left of the building, the prized cow way off to the right of the entrance (its left eye is not covered) and the head sculpture inside the building can be triggers that need to be hidden.

Example #2: this image from this blog post (this link leads to more close-up eye contact than the example).

On the path that leads through the image, fairly close to the edge to the left, there's a cart with what looks like an static dummy ox in front. There's a human static dummy standing behind the neck of the ox. The on-looker is well within the field of view of the ox, and the human is oriented such that his face is largely on the visible side of his head. In both cases, it can only be estimated where the eyes are. Still, if I understand you correctly, both the human and the ox can be critical triggers.

Example #3: this image from this blog post (don't scroll beyond this image once you've found it).

Even disregarding the huge posters above the stage, every avatar or occasional NPC dance partner in this animated image can be a trigger for showing their face unless they permanently turn their back and the back of their head towards the on-looker.

"I'll end it with another example since we're already on the topic. You haven't asked yet if you should use “autistic [person]” or “person with autism”. It's a very heated subject."

I think the correct term should be "person in the autistic spectrum".

But I keep forgetting stuff. I can write a monstrous image description, redact it, add a missing transcription which I had previously practically apologised for not having been able to write, end up posting a 13,000-character behemoth and then realise I've forgotten to mention that it's a digital rendering and to describe what that "Metropolis robot Maria" look-alike actually looks like.

Wed, 02 Aug 2023 16:38:57 +0200

Yohan Yukiya Sese ♾️ 사요한 🦣

youronlyone@c.im

@jupiter_rowland > That's because I had to cover a lot…

That's the point I'm trying to explain. You're going to end up with a very long post to cover every possible scenario to the point that your post won't be readable or comprehensible anymore. ^_^

> Re: eyes

Believe it or not, there are. As I've mentioned earlier, those are fine with me, especially since I am wearing eyeglasses and I've learned ways to avoid eye contact. However, that's just me, each autistic person is unique.

> I think the correct term should be "person in the autistic spectrum".

It depends on who you ask.

Based on my own observation over this debate, it is usually parents and non-autistics who prefer “person with autism”. While the “person with autism” they call mostly (not all) prefers “autistic person” or “autistics”.

As for “person in the autistic spectrum”, that's new. This is the first I've heard of it and it appears to me as an attempt to combine “person with autism” and “autistic person” and “autism spectrum disorder” into one. And… surprise… there are “persons with autism” and “autistic persons” who also do not like “in the ‘autism/autistic’ spectrum” because it sounds like the person was placed inside a certain box, you know, “in the” or “inside the spectrum”.

Going back, from autism alone, you will probably end up with a very long alt-text, description, or posts, just to cover everything. So, my take on this, your own instance rules and keep it simple.

I use “autistic” and “autistic person”, if someone from the “person with autism” camp doesn't like it, I don't care.

Or, for example, someone tells me to CW my political/elections posts, I don't care either. My instance doesn't have draconic rules, and in my country, in our culture, we have zero issues about political/election related posts. In fact, we prefer to see it so we can make informed decisions.

Somewhere, you will have to draw the line. ^_^

Anyway, going back to the eyes… if you really want to cover all bases, then the best course of action is to cover the eyes. So if your post gets reshared… there's no risk of offending someone, or putting someone in an uncomfortable situation.

As we often say, no two autistics are the same.

Wed, 02 Aug 2023 18:29:02 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Wed, 02 Aug 2023 18:28:51 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🦣 That's where I'm different.

I already go out of my way to write image descriptions that aren't just simple little alt-texts that depend on the contect. I think I can estimate what people are unfamiliar with when they encounter my images, regardless of whether they're sighted or not. What they don't know needs a description, what they don't understand needs an explanation, and what someone may not be able to read needs a transcription.

It wouldn't be fitting if I were to become sloppy with my content warnings again. Why would I put so much effort into the image description and then none into content warnings?

It'd be a waste if I spent hours writing an image description, just for someone openly stating that they don't boost a post of mine with a monstrous image description because it doesn't have sufficient content warning on it.

And I'm well aware that my posts may end up just about everywhere in the Fediverse. I've got over 400 followers, the vast majority of whom is on Mastodon, and many of whom don't even care what my channel is about. Some of them may be boost-happy, and they may have even boost-happier followers themselves.

And before you know it, a post of mine with sensitive content in the text, the image description or the image itself ends up in a community that's meant to be a safe haven for people easily triggered by just that content. Mind you, I'm probably not even using the same project as that community, much less on the same instance. And they might not know that I'm not using the same project as them.

So someone in that community might be triggered so hard that they absolutely lash out against me for not following their CW rules or "established" CW rules. Or for allegedly not flagging images in a post with a CW as sensitive. The thing is, I can't do anything here to blur out my images on Mastodon. But it's hard to tell that to people who don't even realise that I'm not on Mastodon.

I'm not the one to tell such people to "grow a pair". I'm not the one to shrug it off if one of my posts makes someone feel uneasy if I can prevent that, and I can, there's almost always a way.

The best would be to avoid posting any images that might trigger anyone until either Mastodon officially understands and takes over Hubzilla's own sensitive flag or Mastodon automatically blurs out all images under a post with a CW, no matter where they come from.

Once I can make my images blurry on Mastodon, and I can rely on CWs, I might end up writing CWs that are so long that they themselves need CWs for being long.

Fri, 01 Sep 2023 13:07:53 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

I am not sure what to say here. I am not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic.

The problem of such restrictions is that it depends on the rules of a particular community. Some are ultra strict and others are not.

If you want to fit into and participate in a particular community, then you have to follow their rules, which, ideally, are written down somewhere.

If you depend on random people spouting off their personal opinions, you will get inconsistent and conflicting responses.

If you want to be as accommodating as possible and/or you participate in communities where autistic people frequent, then the safest thing is to just put the content warning. Just like if you were posting some place that recovering alcoholics frequent, it wouldn't be appropriate to be posting about how great alcohol is.

But if you are just posting to a general audience, do you really need the content warning in case someone might be triggered or offended? Because, at a certain point, almost everything will need a content warning since somewhere someone will be triggered.

If your audience includes autistic people, then it might be wise to put the content warning just in case, especially if an autistic person told you it made them uncomfortable or your server administrator told you it is a rule. But it is up to you.

Fri, 01 Sep 2023 14:27:36 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 14:27:19 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz I'm absolutely serious.

And if @♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🦣 says that a vertical pile of three or four blurry pixels in a very very busy picture that's 800 pixels wide and 533 pixels high can cause an eye-contact trigger for autistic people, regardless whether or not I explicitly mention that this pile of three or four blurry pixels is something resembling a human being with the face visible from the on-looker's point of view, then that's serious, too. Even if the head of that human figure is less than a quarter of a pixel.

Posting to a general audience doesn't mean my posts won't be encountered by sensitive people on specialised instances with very restrictive rules. My audience always includes autistic people. I can't keep this from happening unless I stop posting to those who are my actual target audience. For each virtual worlds enthusiast to whom I post, I've got ten casual followers and tens of thousands of hapless readers of federated Mastodon timelines as by-catch. Mastodon users from all over the place follow me without even being interested in the primary topic of this channel. And it gets even worse when someone with the "wrong" followers boosts one of my posts.

I think I already have followers on Mastodon instances with very strict CW rules. And I might have followers who in turn have followers on mentalhealth.social. If one of these boosts one of my posts, it'll end up on the federated timeline of mentalhealth.social, breaking its rules and triggering people left and right.

I'm pretty sure that they won't shrug it off because it comes from another instance, from outside their community. They won't even shrug it off because it comes from a wholly different project that doesn't even use ActivityPub as its basic protocol. It's there, it doesn't follow the community rules, and it hurts community members by not doing so. That's all that matters.

But you're right: In this regard, everyone on every instance of every project would have to add content warnings for everything that might trigger someone into the appropriate field, whatever it's named on their project. And everyone on every instance from which they can't make their images blurry on Mastodon must not post any images with anything in them that might trigger anyone.

In all sincerity and seriousness: The Fediverse would be a better place if Mastodon had a better and, most importantly, easier-to-use receiver-side content warning system. Then dropping keywords and/or hashtags would be sufficient, and everyone could have content warnings on exactly what they need to be warned about and nothing more.

Fri, 01 Sep 2023 22:02:11 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

For people who want to add content warnings, perhaps a feature that scans your post and suggests content warning tags before you send it would be useful. If you even get fancy, it can scan the images for people looing directly at the camera. Maybe even suggest alt tags. A locally hosted AI could provide some amazing functionality.

It would also be nice if Hubzilla/(streams) would treat Mastodon and ActivityPub as two different animals. Mastodon has it's own implementation of ActivityPub and has certain quirks other fediverse apps don't have. We shouldn't downgrade the experience of non-Mastodon users just because Mastodon does things in an inconvenient way. So, just treat them differently at the protocol level. Send Mastodon what it wants, and send everyone else the ActivityPub, Zot, or Nomad standards, as the case may be.

Or maybe we need to come up with a standard that would work on multiple platforms and projects.